WIP screenshots

callvote map kimpas

(huhuhu, shepas, but by kim, hahahahahaha)

Looks awesome, I especially like the new pillar! :PPP

to me that looks just map of its own era.wbomb4 is already quite old map and since then there has been lot of texture,models,engine improvements so its a bit wrong imo to compare even though this looks better.

also I'm not sure if you got authority to change map gameplay that is already solid.

m0t0 wrote:
also I'm not sure if you got authority to change map gameplay that is already solid.

The gameplay is good, but could still be improved a bit. But yeah i won´t do any major changes at all. That pillar for example - it´s just taking away a bit of the EB-heaviness at that area, giving a small bit of cover.

well according to my knowledge pilars like this just makes it more eb heavy and spam heavy because these guns benefits from covers.Thats because eb/rl user can use these pilars etc as a cover while they reload their guns.

Also if you have heard expression: dont fix anything thats not broken,I would advice you to rediscover the possibility of not having the pilar there.Also I asked a question where you didnt answer.Plus in the end crizis have often talked about some maps and how the gameplay is not worth of fixing and I think wbomb4 is one of those.se

I would understand if it would be for looks.Since its not and its relatively big change on map that needs absolutely none changes, I think its just plain wrong.

Oh and about ebheaviness.Having huge area like that, you cant "fix" eb-heaviness there.Besides its the part of the map gameplay logic and IMO its not devs job to change it.Especially on map that has certainly established in its position in mappools.

Also the predicted/expected gameplay is not same as true gameplay.Besides if 0.7 has reduced amount of eb ammo/player dont you think that will by itself reduce the eb-heaviness.So therefore its possible that you get double reduce thats too much.

I'm pretty sure the pillar is fine. That position will still be very weak.

Kimza, it looks very sexy, but don't be so shy with the cone lights under those lamps. Push it up for good. Give the map some shadows.
(updated 2012-02-20 18:51:21)

moto 1:0 team pillar
i like moto's explanation. although it is just speculative, the arguments are well layed out. it is almost rude to put it off like that.
i find it hard to decide, if the arguments are reasonable. maybe it's not that big a cut in the gameplay. the pillar makes the long passage less open, which i deem a good thing in general, not just blocking view to the entrance. it facilitates guarding the armed bomb, so def is more in need to protect that spot early into the round, thus opening bombside A (the other one). right?
game was always a bit A heavy imho. on the other hand this favours offense camping, that is before bomb is armed. seeing gameplay on emtown, its clear moto dislikes that around the bombspots ;) but seeing defense has high ground, this might be fair.
objection to changes swings in the tone, which developers tend to dislike, afaict. because it leads to confusion and leadless metadiscussion (about a pillar xD).
i wouldnt put it off either way. yes, mapping is hard in every detail :D always glad to see any change that is aimed at improving playability and backed by firm thought.

now, kimza, when you are done updating all the maps that were imho already perfectly fine, when will we see kimzawbomb/wdm1? working on it?
release early, release often (c) google ;)
(updated 2012-02-21 00:51:32)

jal wrote:
Kimza, it looks very sexy, but don't be so shy with the cone lights under those lamps. Push it up for good. Give the map some shadows.

Thanks jal, i´ll be sure to try that with the lights.

m0t0 wrote:
well according to my knowledge pilars like this just makes it more eb heavy and spam heavy because these guns benefits from covers.Thats because eb/rl user can use these pilars etc as a cover while they reload their guns.

The pillar will make defenders pull out other guns than EB. If a player of offense comes inside B and take cover for a bit, defenders will pull out RL and shoot behind the pillar. This also gives the player behind the pillar the chance to catch the defender off-guard while he doesn´t have EB equipped, thus making it less "EB-heavy", we all know how it looks at B when you come in as offense, 3 defenders standing at the upper floors with EB zoomed in. Even if this will just make 1/3 defenders not having EB equipped even briefly, it´s alot more fun than having them at 3/3.

Also if you have heard expression: dont fix anything thats not broken,I would advice you to rediscover the possibility of not having the pilar there.Also I asked a question where you didnt answer.Plus in the end crizis have often talked about some maps and how the gameplay is not worth of fixing and I think wbomb4 is one of those.se

I personally like wbomb4 the way it is atm, I have no big gripes with it. But it could be better.
But I can not count the number of times I've heard complains about the EB heaviness of the map and of how much easier it is to defend this bombspot.

That beeing said we need to try it out and see if it actually makes the gameplay better, but personally I think it should help since it enables the attacking team to cover the exits abit easier without the constant "fear" of getting hit from everywhere by EB shots. :)

Usually search for some holy gameplay grail leads things tuned down to shit and killing all the fun with "overbalacing". So be careful with it.

i really like the gameplay on wbomb4, but yes it can be kinda ebheavy at b sometimes. Dont think the pillar will do any dramatic gameplay changes, so i say go for it. Its not that big change :) as crizis said though, be careful with "overbalancing"

VectorVanDoom wrote:
now, kimza, when you are done updating all the maps that were imho already perfectly fine, when will we see kimzawbomb/wdm1? working on it?
release early, release often (c) google ;)

I wouldn´t agree about Shepas being perfectly fine, to me it just consists of rectangular brushes with 4 different brick textures. What I mean is that nothing on the map looks like what it´s supposed to be (buildings mainly) which is easily fixable by adding windows and other things.

Well I have done the remakes for wda1, wda2 and continued 36´s work on Depot (which is about 95% done), wdm6 remake is also about 95% done, wca3 requires some work to finish.
So I still have work to do for 0.7, but after that maybe.

fact:

A)No map is perfect in gameplaywise.Best possible gameplay is impossible to archieve.there are few reasons for this and since i dont have time im not gonna go into those

and umm then my opinion is that umm I dont think wbomb4 is the map where you can go and test random gameplay settings.Like i said it is established its position in bomb.therefore I dont think "being pretty sure its fine" is enough :)

and still you havent given answer on my question

I seriously don't know what you're on about el_moto. I have never mentioned that I'm going to make the gameplay perfect. I'm simply trying to improve it, which shouldn't be frowned upon.

And "random gameplay settings"?, It's a damn pillar (that has a lot of thought behind it).

As for your question, sure I have some say as far as the level design goes, I'm a level designer after all? And if the others in the development team doesn't like/approve of some of my ideas I'm not going to be narrow-minded about it. They told me straight up about wdm6 what couldn't be changed.

well to me gameplay is almost like subject under social sciences.Theres no really right or wrong.This leads to "fact" that calling your actions as attempt to improve gameplay is wrong if reflected this to that ideology.

and have you thought that how this affect such thigs as bombsite balance,attack/def balance and how this generates new tactics and maybe disables some old ones.Also this is just one pic of this map and only you and god knows whats ahead.

Plus there is also community that likes this map map.I take that you got permission from devteam. However there is always community and I can say that if you cant/dont argument your gameplay changes to community you have done shit job.Besides this is probably good example of changes that have banished people out of this game.I mean something random that has come as a suprise in major release.Like rl in 0.6,new kb code in 0.5 etc.

there are lot of examples from past how old players prefer old version of maps over these new ones.Besides there is this respect issue. I'm not sure are you as a mapper allowed replace other mappers versions with your map.Changing gameplay is like removing the old one. Also you have showed at #warsow.mapping how you dont respect other people work and generally the warsow's history so its bit odd to me how you can change all these maps so much at the same time.

And reason has been to create discussion.Its alot easier to use some argument failures to quit discussion or just throw some "so beatifull"-comments which leads to nowhere.

<irony>popcorn time</irony>
anthy is in the devteam and kimza has got permission from the devteam to change the map. so no disrespect there. maybe the map will lose its individual flavour? i dont mind gfx changes and i think kimza tried very well to argue the single gameplay change. i had rather read some follow up, to the arguments, a good discussion if you will, but instead this seems to be a bit personal of an issue. as you pointed out yourself, even gameplaychanges are a matter of taste. then how can it be broken? but your message didnt concern with kimzas reply, tho, so i guess this discussion is over.

i find this sense for detail terrific, tbh. but it's easy to get your head too much wrapped up in and default to "dont fix whats not broken". in developement you should be allowed to experiment, although one might think that's not something to do in a release. a playtest should bring clarity and might be in order, even for minute changes like this. might not be viable for a small game like this and cant tell you how it will be played in the end.

well he asked what im about to and i answered.

and in that sentence that I told about how to do bad job I used IF which in this case makes big differense.So basicly i ment generally and this is totally my own opinion and is based on the fact that has been said in this thread already.

in nutshell
a)wbomb4 has established its on position
b)dont fix if its not broken

Therefore I think the one who makes changes has responsibility to validate actions.

This disrespect accusation is not based on this case.It only touches on this.Err actually its not really accusation, its more like a statement that It's not possible to do both.Have disrespect and take advatange of other people work.

and @vec yeah I tottally agree,experimenting/ideas etc should be rewarded much more.This game is alive as long as someone is willing to experiment something new Imo.Sometimes these fail and sometimes these are the biggest accomplishments.So My intention was not to hurt anyone feelings or anythign :D.Only to discuss.

and yes its abit offtopic.

I want show picture here:





Got pile of these now/soon and could release my own decal textureset soon :)
(updated 2012-02-22 01:48:12)

Uh, now, I don't mind too much if you butcher the language on the forums, even if it takes excruciating effort to understand your posts at times, but that bipbeta sign...

If you intend to release these textures, things like "What did just happened here?" just won't do.

Now, if you didn't make that one, fair enough, but if its changeable, please do.

Though its still less noticeable than the standard warsow TVANIME signs which loop wrong, with a nice round glow and a flat border. Noone but me seems to care much about that one.

If you intend to release these textures, things like "What did just happened here?" just won't do.

Aww, I thought "what did just happened here?" was funny :D
(updated 2012-02-22 07:20:18)

el_moto if it turns out people really don't like the things I changed in the map, I'll simply just change them back. It's not that big of a deal, but let's atleast give it a try.

I spent all night after work yesterday to finish up pretty much all of the poor brushwork on the map, so now it's mostly just about adding the theme to the rest of the map. I did some quick work on the area outside the offensive spawn area towards B aswell. Some things doesn't look very well or fitting, so I will still change some stuff. But here's a screenshot: