0.7 CTF Thread

First of all - players enjoying this 'speed' in ctf are pretty much always playing offence. The issue is the defense part. Without the capture timers, as defense you always had the "yea that was it, back to base" feeling when the flag got out. It was demoralizing, and felt like you lost already even before the flag was capped, and that made it a lot less fun than it should have been.

The capture timers were - to some extend - introduced to give the defense an "I can still make it" feeling, even when they die in-base or if the flags gets out. The unlock/capture timers were an attempt to balance out this speed advantage of offense, and give the defense purpose even after the flag was gone or if they died.

And I agree with thelawenforcer on this point - speed is the 'problem'. A classic CTF is simply unplayable in wsw, this has been proven by ppl capping flags in just a few seconds on wctf1. However, addressing the speed issue by limiting or modifying it is not necessarily a solution, and I'm certainly not in favor. This is Warsow.

Let me explain: iCTF works in warsow. It's a rush and loads of fun to play from time to time. And why is that? Defense has a 'counter' against the speed: a hitscan instant kill weapon. In nw CTF you don't have this.




I have brainstormed a lot of things in the past, the current capture/unlock timer system being one of them, but this iCTF vs CTF gave me an idea. Now this is just a brainfart I just came up with but what about this:

- Classic CTF setup, without unlock/capture timers

- the flagcarrier receives more than X enemy damage, the flag drops. This should probably be time based (X damage within X milliseconds, to allow weapons like the LG to drop the flag, but one lucky long-distance RG hit shouldn't)

- When the flag is dropped, there is no instant return when touching the flag. There would be a 'return' timer which can be sped up by standing on it, like the current unlock timer to actually return the flag. How long/how exactly this should work should be finetuned/tested. There are multiple options here.

- The enemy picking up the flag when dropped is instant.

- Everybody gets an indicator where the dropped flag is with a timer when it will return.

- When you throw a flag, you can't pick it up for a few seconds (counter constant throwing/picking up). When hit and you drop the flag, this limitation should not be present.



This keeps the 'classic' concept intact, doesn't touch the player's speed, gives defense a good counter, promotes teamplay (throwing/passing flags, defending/shielding the flag carrier, ...). It moves around the strategic points and I think this would make the game a lot more dynamic and move the fighting around, which is something I really liked in TFC and TF2.



There are a few optional ideas too to counter potential problems would be:

- Flag is not dropped when hit within X time after picking it up, to counter spamming the flag with rockets/grenades/... and give the offense a fair chance of actually picking it up

- After a cap, only place the flag back in the base after a few seconds, giving the defense which is probably not in-base the opportunity to return (and counter suicides)

- Respawn delay ONLY after suicide

Anyway - that sounds like a potential gametype script, that's why we have them :)

koffie, that sounds pretty complicated and isnt very intuitive - the rules dont 'leap' out, you would have to be explained how things work.

the idea that im going to test out (i already have it functioning, but need to implement it into ctf etc) is airfriction.

over speed x, force y is applied which slows you down, and as x increases, y does too. the idea is to apply this to flagcarriers.

the way it works is that whenever you are over speed x, all the time you are not accelerating, you are losing speed. it also reduces the rate at which flagcarriers accelerate, especially as they start moving faster.

1. no randomness - this is a consistent effect, applied at all times to someone carrying the flag.

2. its discrete - as far as movement or speed limiters suggestions go, this is the only one that doesnt remove movement features, or set a hard limit on speed or otherwise reduce other speed parameters. its also not that noticeable.

3. it rewards movement skill - better movers will be able to build and maintain higher speeds than less good ones.

4. rewards teamplay - the attacker can now actually be chased down by defenders, he will need an escort and protection from his teammates - he can no longer rely on speed alone.

5. keeps thing simple - there is nothing to understand before you can play, no obscure rules to explain etc. its pretty much just normal ctf.

6. it actually addresses the problem - fastcapping attackers and only that. there is no added complexity or need to fine tune and tweak many different values. with koffie's suggestion, not only is it complex, but it would require a large amount of tweaking (you are adding a whole new load of variables - damage to drop flag, time before return, time to return etc). with this system, there is only one thing to tweak (it needs to be strong enough to be effective, but not so strong that its overly noticable).

imo, with this system everyone pretty much gets what they want: defenders are no longer powerless once an attacker has got their flag and a headstart. attackers get to keep all their movement abilities and if anything, there is a larger emphasis on good movement. attacking and defending require more coordination - attackers when it comes to planning escape routes etc, and defenders when it comes to cutting off attackers.
(updated 2012-07-24 19:15:11)

Your sollution should have a pretty harsh effect to actually do any good at all, ruining it for flagcappers, because when these flagcappers get the flag and are out of the base, defense will still have to chase it, and have a decent chance of catching up.

Let me just say this: people capped flags in 6 seconds on wctf1 in the old days (K0li0 anyone?). The capture timer was first 10 seconds and then reduced to 8 seconds. Both were archieved all the time in pickup games - and both were problematic for defense. Now let's assume you want to add airfriction to make the 8-second 'fastcap' into a 10 second fastcap.

You need to slow the capper down by a massive 25% to let him cap "just" in 10 seconds. And you think that would be discrete? That 10 seconnds was still a problem, and will still be, and you would have to do a whole lot better than that 25% to make any difference.

koffie, that sounds pretty complicated and isnt very intuitive - the rules dont 'leap' out, you would have to be explained how things work.

What's complicated about it? As an offense player, you grab the flag. As defense, from that point you hunt and try to hit him. If the carrier gets hit badly enough, the flag drops. The return timer is only there to make it possible to actually capture the flag and not give the defense the upper hand here. The point is to give some power to defense in case of a lost flag, not take things away from offense. In T:A you also have grenades that let the carrier drop the flag, and they seem to work?

I'm just not a fan of 'slowing down' the movement at all, this modifies the core game basics. It would also make it inconsistent with iCTF (where the movement should certainly not be touched at all).

I'm just not convinced that speed itself is bad, you just need something to counter it as defense. Why does it work in instagib? Because when you hit the flag-carrier, the flag is dropped, and that gameplay is a rush.

in your previous post you say that speed is the problem, but now it isnt?

i remember k0li0 quite well, the 6 second caps were possible mainly because of the ceiling ramp on bottom floor.

the system im planning to try isnt a linear effect that is felt the same at every speed. whilst i appreciate your argument that perhaps the friction effect will have to be so strong that the 'good feeling' is lost i think its worth a shot, because it also might not.

whilst your concept might be simple on the surface, to make it work you have already invoked 3 timers or time frames ( 1 for the damage within time x, 2 for defender return, 3 for flag return resteal). warsow has had 1 timer ctf, it now has 2 timer ctf, both of which werent exactly super succesful, and now you are advocating 3 timer ctf? (i kno its not quite that, but this obsession with timers has to stop ^^)

whilst i agree that ictf can (or rather was, as its disappeared since) be quite fun, normal weapons and instagib are not the same. no amount of hacking will change that.

if flagrunning at 800ups instead of 950ups will ruin the game for flagrunners, what will constantly getting the flag shot off you do? i know which one i would prefer...

if already with the current system very experienced players (like chas for example) are a little bit confused, how do you expect noobs to do with your one?

its time to be realistic, if its a core gameplay mechanic that is causing a problem, you might aswell try and address it in the most precise way, rather than ignoring it and erecting some wierd construction around it.
(updated 2012-07-24 21:59:49)

Slowing down the movement of offence players would be the worst you could do.

Would be best to just make each team recover their flag by actually picking it up and carrying it back to their base.

Whatever your plans for ctf are, please don't touch ictf.

Actually ictf scoring system needs a gentle touch, what i mean is that it was way cooler to play when you had +1 point for every frag (now it is 0) :)

neszyemk wrote:
Slowing down the movement of offence players would be the worst you could do.

why?

neszyemk wrote:
Would be best to just make each team recover their flag by actually picking it up and carrying it back to their base.

why?

CPMA has this air friction, but they have instant steal&cap so it's more needed there. As an active CTF player I really think that the air friction isn't needed in Warsow CTF, since there already is that unlock timer. And chasing the carrier isn't impossible at all. In fact, every time I play as def I get many chase recoveries. Protip: MG and EB.

Besides, I think defending is already easier than attacking, so I don't know why you are trying to make attacking even harder.

randzor wrote:
Actually ictf scoring system needs a gentle touch, what i mean is that it was way cooler to play when you had +1 point for every frag (now it is 0) :)

Agreed.
(updated 2012-07-25 08:14:06)

Sorry, I forgot to say that there would be no more timers for unlock/cap with this.

Are there any details about how it works in cpm? Funnily enough I think it just reinforces my point about discretion. I've played loads of cpm and I never knew they already had this :)

I think it works just as you described, because the deceleration seems to be higher when you have high speed, and it only applies after a speed like 500-600.
(updated 2012-07-25 11:50:27)

Ye I looked for some kind of info but all I could find was something very unclear on NA wiki.

thelawenforcer wrote:

neszyemk wrote:
Slowing down the movement of offence players would be the worst you could do.

why?

neszyemk wrote:
Would be best to just make each team recover their flag by actually picking it up and carrying it back to their base.

why?

Well, in order for your suggestion on air friction to work, you would have to, after a certain speed, decrease the speed drastically. Otherwise it would be the same as before the timers.

This means that you would have to cripple the movement in order for it to work, basically taking the whole fun out of warsow ctf and making it more into slower paced games ctf.

I for one play warsow because it is fast paced and allows a huge amount of freedom in movement, which essentialy is the reason why I think decreasing the movement speed is a bad idea.



Now, about my suggestion.

If it was necessary for the teams to carry their flags back to their base in order to recover it, even if you remove timers, this would decrease the problem with fastcaps by some degree and even encourage some teamwork.

There would be less cases where there is only one off and three defs like it was often in ictf, which would, by some degree, eliminate constant fastcapes. The flagcarrier wouldn't be able to carry his and the enemys flag which would require one or two defs to go and recover it instead, leaving some room for the enemy team to prepare an attack or to grab/recover the flag again.

You wouldn't be able to just rush the enemy base, recover the flag, suicide and quickly go back to your defence spot like it used to be in ictf.

So basically, with this one gameplay element, there would be no need for timers and still ctf would become similar to what ictf is now.

I don't think that the effect has to be super strong for it to start being effective. I will have to see when I get a chance to test it. As I said, if instead of 950ups the fc is travelling at 800, I think that would make a difference. 800ups is still damn fast, and as you don't lose any movement abilities or freedom I don't think it's fair to characterise it as crippling - I would characterise stun as crippling as it does actually literally cripple you and remove movement freedom yet it is largely seen as a necessary evil (its definately evil and I would do anything to kill it, preferably with nuclear fire ;p).

With respect to your suggestion, its something that I like in principle, but it would just result in huge speed cap fest wouldn't it? There are no moderators like the timing systems, and then it would also make recovering the flag harder. There is nothing to stop attackers coming in at speed and escaping at speed. We would essentially be back to 0.1 ctf with the 6 second caps as koffie describes. You say that this system would mean that there wouldn't be defense heavy team stacking, but seeing as it will be even more important to stop flags getting taken as the chances of recovering it once it has been taken are even lower (gotta catch fc then bring flag back instead of just catch fc, something that's hard enough already!) I think you will see precisely that, stacking defence.

At the beginning of your argument you assert that this system would eliminate fast caps, but you don't put forward any convincing arguments to support that claim.
(updated 2012-07-25 23:19:42)

Alrighty, but what if i take my flag back from enemy and start running around with it ? :P
It is better form of defense than keeping it on flagspot :)
Also it could cause situation when you hide ur own flag (remember old ctf5 pipe :))
(updated 2012-07-25 23:21:30)

thelawenforcer wrote:
I don't think that the effect has to be super strong for it to start being effective. I will have to see when I get a chance to test it. As I said, if instead of 950ups the fc is travelling at 800, I think that would make a difference. 800ups is still damn fast, and as you don't lose any movement abilities or freedom I don't think it's fair to characterise it as crippling - I would characterise stun as crippling as it does actually literally cripple you and remove movement freedom yet it is largely seen as a necessary evil (its definately evil and I would do anything to kill it, preferably with nuclear fire ;p).

With respect to your suggestion, its something that I like in principle, but it would just result in huge speed cap fest wouldn't it? There are no moderators like the timing systems, and then it would also make recovering the flag harder. There is nothing to stop attackers coming in at speed and escaping at speed. We would essentially be back to 0.1 ctf with the 6 second caps as koffie describes. You say that this system would mean that there wouldn't be defense heavy team stacking, but seeing as it will be even more important to stop flags getting taken as the chances of recovering it once it has been taken are even lower (gotta catch fc then bring flag back instead of just catch fc, something that's hard enough already!) I think you will see precisely that, stacking defence.

At the beginning of your argument you assert that this system would eliminate fast caps, but you don't put forward any convincing arguments to support that claim.

For your idea with air friction to work without timers, you would have to lower the speed of the fc drastically, otherwise it would not make much difference. Hence why I said it's a bad idea to lower the speed, because theres no difference if you lower the speed to 800, good offence players will cap pretty fast. I can't even imagine how air friction would work when you boost yourself with rockets.


About preventing fastcaps. Since it is much more easier to get the flag in ctf than it is in ictf (without timers), both teams can easily take the flag, but returning their own flags would require teamplay, so would protecting the fc. That's why I believe there would be no situations with 3 defence players. One would help the one carrying their own flag, other def the fc.

randzor wrote:
Alrighty, but what if i take my flag back from enemy and start running around with it ? :P
It is better form of defense than keeping it on flagspot :)
Also it could cause situation when you hide ur own flag (remember old ctf5 pipe :))

You can abuse it in its current state also, just hide with the flag if you're in the lead. And besides, this is the exact reason why the 3 def situation just wouldn't work.

Trust me, without timers, if an attacker touches the flag, its quite likely that he will be out of your base very soon after and cap. He attacks with high speed and leaves the standing start defenders for dead. I don't see how having to return your own flag helps this at all as it's completely unrelated to the problem - catching and killing players who have no other goal than speed and agility. I personally don't find it all that fun to try and chase down someone who doesn't have to worry about aiming and who can easily put you off with his movement. This is the imbalance imo, attacking is just more efficient than defending, and far more so in ctf than ictf.

It's probably not all that time consuming to make very basic versions of all of these ideas. Perhaps it could be possible to gather some people and put them all to the test?
(updated 2012-07-26 03:15:18)

Well, he can get the flag as fast as he wants, but he cant cap it unless their flag is recovered, which requires a certain amount of involvement from all 4 players. Remember, others can get the flag fast enough to prevent fastcaps, its not like its that hard to take the flag in ctf without timers.

In the end, it all depends on how good the offence players are, but the need to recover their own flag would help prevent one man team matches.

Cross cap situations can stabilise a game while they last, that's true, but whenever it isn't like that, things break down very quickly. cross cap situations already exist though, and if anything, air friction would increase their likely hood as defs going for steal have higher chance of beating enemy fc.

While i think the problem lies in the general direction of what i've suggested earlier, alot could be done just with mapping. What if there were no timers, and:

1) The maps would be slightly/alot longer? Meaning the time what it takes to reach from flag to flag. Think like size of wctf6 + twice as long midfield, which would include multiple chokepoints. Or even longer?
2) A 1 way teleport near own base which is only accessile for your team, and leads to midfield. Think of the base teleport in wctf6 leading to your GL area.

These changes could allow defenders another change to hunt down the fastcapping evil bastard. This could also make the game require even somekind of backup for the carrier, and maybe controlling midfield could become more important rather than the game focusing all of time only on bases when PU isnt up. Provided the chokepoints in mid are enough choked. Maybe even to a degree of "take a damned jumppad to reach a mountain or save enough hp/armor to do 2-3 rocketjumps."
(updated 2012-07-26 08:30:02)

wizardo wrote:

jal wrote:
TBH, I think the ctf that works better in Warsow is insta ctf, cause powerful EB is the only thing that counters speed properly.

Wouldn't this confirm there's actually something majorly flawed with the weaponset, if only one hitscan weapon works properly with the speeds people are moving?

No, it confirms there's something majorly flawed with the movement. It has always been, and it can't be changed cause the players who are playing Warsow want this movement. All gameplay flaws in Warsow come always from the very same place: the stupidly overpowered movement, and every attempt I made to nerf the movement was trashed badly.

CTF will not work well in Warsow unless you slow down the runner a lot. Live with it.

In fact, every gametype in Warsow would play way better with much slower speeds. Except race, ofc.
(updated 2012-07-26 15:49:03)