Ideas about the new ammo system

Title says it.

So I think the problem now is that ammo packs aren't valuable enough. They seemed to give the same ammo what picking up weapons give. But, in duel for example, if you pick up weapons, you get the weapon and you can stop your opponent from getting that weapon in the next 15 seconds. You can also go up to the maximum ammo count by just picking the weapons, you don't need strong ammo for it.

So I have 2 ideas:

1) Make ammo packs give more ammo than what picking up a weapon would give. Not necessary on all weapons, but in my opinion it could work out great if, for example, GL gave 5 ammo and the GL ammo pack gave 10. Same with atleast PG and LG.

2) Make there an ammo cap above which you can't get with taking only weapons. But you can get over it by taking ammo packs! The maximum amount could be quite big. This way players could get lots of ammo for their favourite weapons if they made the effort of picking up the strong ammo packs for it.

Nerf PG (or make it slower), buff lg and add more knockback to it, maybe higher reload time for rockets and nades. What do you think?

SkulP wrote:
Nerf PG (or make it slower), buff lg and add more knockback to it, maybe higher reload time for rockets and nades. What do you think?

what's about only lg+eb mode?;)
(updated 2012-06-30 13:19:33)

CrustY wrote:

SkulP wrote:
Nerf PG (or make it slower), buff lg and add more knockback to it, maybe higher reload time for rockets and nades. What do you think?

what's about only lg+eb mode?;)

atm its pretty much a "poop the right rockets to win", and you cant do anything to counter it other than pooping better rockets than ur opponent.

atm it's pretty much to die in ~1 second of strong lg damage in midrange fight.

CrustY wrote:
atm it's pretty much to die in ~1 second of strong lg damage in midrange fight.

Yeah, if you have 100/30 stack and the opponent is using aimbot to achieve 100% accuracy :|

SkulP wrote:
Nerf PG (or make it slower), buff lg and add more knockback to it, maybe higher reload time for rockets and nades. What do you think?

Well I didn't mean this topic to be a discussion about weapondefs, but well, I agree that LG could use some more knockback. Then it could be a good counter for RL rushing...
(updated 2012-06-30 14:12:07)

This topic has been in discussion between the developers since .7 beta. You will know soon what is decided upon.

The correct thing to do is;
- make ammo packs give their full amount on pickup (like FFmod tried back in the day of 0.5 testing).

So a weapon pickup is 15 like before (weak ammo), and strong ammo packs are now 10 instead of 5 (full amount).. ;) :D

And oh, RL should also have 15 weak ammo like the others and not just 10 imo...
(updated 2012-06-30 20:50:33)

Huksi` wrote:
But, in duel for example, if you pick up weapons, you get the weapon and you can stop your opponent from getting that weapon in the next 15 seconds. You can also go up to the maximum ammo count by just picking the weapons, you don't need strong ammo for it.

Damage diff and the close pickup/max ammount make up for that - preventing taking a wep don't always matter, in that case you want the strongs. Players still take the ammo, and are right to do so. It works ok imo, in the sense that ammos should be taken in close/high skilled games but aren't big win factor and shouldn't be.

What i would do is just replace strong ammos by strong weapons - that is to say, instead of having 5 strong rox, you have a rl with 5 strong rox. Strong control and timimg would matter much more, still keeping the weak/strong gap quite small

Well, the problem being the whole map set have been designed so that ammos count for shit anyway. So you would break more than fix making them a bigger deal, not mentionning whine

Grasli wrote:
The correct thing to do is;
- make ammo packs give their full amount on pickup (like FFmod tried back in the day of 0.5 testing).

This doesn't work because then strong ammos would spawn faster than you consume them. So both players would end up stacked of it and take it even more occasionally, you create no control fashion out of that.
(updated 2012-07-01 00:01:14)

BBQsauce wrote:

Grasli wrote:
The correct thing to do is;
- make ammo packs give their full amount on pickup (like FFmod tried back in the day of 0.5 testing).

This doesn't work because then strong ammos would spawn faster than you consume them. So both players would end up stacked of it and take it even more occasionally, you create no control fashion out of that.

Change strong ammo spawn time in addition then (20sec -> 40sec)? Then it could work :-) :P

All I know is, 5 strong ammo on pickup is just too little. I use it up way too fast.. its like there's no point in picking it up. Giving max ammo on pickup would be much better, and it worked in FFmod back in the day (and also in my own mod which is in making atm).. ;)
(updated 2012-07-01 02:29:44)

If the devs allready have decided to drop the strong/weak ammo system they should go all the way and make the ammo system same as Quake.

Weapons:

MG - 100 bullets
RG - 10 shells
GL - 10 grenades
RL - 10 rockets
PG - 50 cells
LG - 100 cells
EB - 10 slugs

Ammo:

MG - 50 bullets
RG - 5 shells
GL - 5 grenades
RL - 5 rockets
PG - 50 cells
LG - 50 cells
EB - 5 slugs

Ammo boxes are not the items to controll in a game, they are small helpers that make the life of a player easier. Respawn should be 45 seconds.

Also one could arguably make weaponcontroll less important and ammopacks a bit more valuable by reducing the ammount of ammo you get from a second pickup of the same weapon to only 1 bullet/shell/etc. (pretty much cpma style).
(updated 2012-07-01 11:22:53)

yes wtfproof, lets remove walljump and dash aswell, then we can make warsow a (shitty) cpm variant...

So, it's official, 0.7 won't have weak ammos ?

Nice.

it seems weapons will be same across strong or weak, which i dont think many people are complaining about. its rather that ammo serves very little function anymore in the current ammomod.

im waiting to see what they will do in the final version though.

Actually, once upon a time, Warsow was Quake. But I don't think we have plans to go back any time soon.

SkulP wrote:
Nerf PG (or make it slower), buff lg and add more knockback to it, maybe higher reload time for rockets and nades. What do you think?

the lg knockback is actually very high, compared to what it once was, and compared to other dm games.

again, it comes down to maps and movement - lg kb is 12. lets say your being attacked by someone moving towards you at 750ups (which is pretty fast, but by no means the fastest you will get rushed...) that means that to make him slow down to 0, you have to get 63 hits on him. at 50ms per lg shot, that equals 3125 ms, or just over 3 seconds. that is if you get 100% lg. seeing as most people get around 25% accuracy now, that means it would take 12 seconds to properly slow someone down (not counting the fact that he can still accel).

you might think that this shows you have to increase kb, but thats only how it works at one extreme - the fast extreme. when your on the ground and just using normal movement, the kb is quite strong enough. the issue is that at speed, with the maps being small and cubey, you rarely get 3 seconds of lg time before the guy is in your face with rockets.

trying to increase lg kb to counter the super high speed rushers, will just break it for those instances where someone isnt rushing you at 750ups+.

To translate kb from weapondefs in ups.s accel, there is a formula going on that is something like push = 1000 * kb / mass, mass being 350 or so, so basically if you have 9kb in weapondef (which is lg kb iirc) then it's roughly 25 ups/shot accel which is 500 ups.s accel.

The problem increasing the lg further is that it makes it quite random when used for chasing, you would push the player so hard that he would fly 800 or so ups landing quite randomly in a corner or just very far. That would make little sense :D
(updated 2012-07-02 18:42:12)

i knew my maths and understanding would be wrong ^^

but it was more to illustrate the point that the extremes in speed make such a thing hard to get right.

SkulP wrote:
Nerf PG (or make it slower), buff lg and add more knockback to it, maybe higher reload time for rockets and nades. What do you think?

been saying that since beginning of promod......besides the knockback
(updated 2012-07-03 16:00:04)

BBQsauce wrote:
The problem increasing the lg further is that it makes it quite random when used for chasing, you would push the player so hard that he would fly 800 or so ups landing quite randomly in a corner or just very far. That would make little sense :D

could scale it with the relative velocities of both players ie if someone is rushing you it stops them dead, if you are chasing it tickles them