0.7 CTF Thread

Consensus? This is Warsow.

But on the bright side, anyone who can't do it themselves can just deal with it. I still say doing it on a separate server for testing rather than making the testing version official sounds like not being idiotic.

VectorVanDoom wrote:

That sounds like too much effort to set up

haha, no. using autoupdate should be simple enough. the problem is finding a concensus on what settings to choose.

That's why I created this thread.

MagusZero wrote:
I still say doing it on a separate server for testing rather than making the testing version official sounds like not being idiotic.

you don't seem to realise that the current official ctf is just testing, too, and the proposed chamges are minimal.

huksi: i know, i just dont have much to say to that, since i can't judge it or argue about it. i.e. i can't see why some disliked 1 sec spawntime, when i hardly noticed.

SO who is playing CTF and knows or meets ingame some people ?

Simple ask them to join the discussion!

Now they have the ability to improve their gametype.

,....

CTF? Haha, what? Warsow is more about iCA and BOMB now :D Just wait for 0.7 and everything will be ok,people will start to play classic gts and changes will come by themself!

adem wrote:
CTF? Haha, what? Warsow is more about iCA and BOMB now :D Just wait for 0.7 and everything will be ok,people will start to play classic gts and changes will come by themself!

Only advertising, cups and activity on standard gts can make it. A new release can do nothing for it, unfortunatelly :/

there are about 3 clans and a bunch of random people who play ctf, none of which actively do, for all i know. even less have a strong oppinion on the matter or care about formulating one.
in my humble opinion, ctf can be great fun but it's very different from other game's versions of ctf, since you can race a lot. cpm comes very close, but i dont know if any wswctf player is a seasoned cpmctf veteran who can tell the difference. from what i remember and hear, people always had fun playing ctf, but somewhen they find it broken. thats the root of the problem, i'd like to read a sophisticated analysis of the problem but then all i hear in chats is it's to much rushing or too random. as if they complain about uncoordinated gameplay. there lies my problem.
the game is so fast and chaotic, you can't really coordinate much ... and then i dont hit much either, when it counts, or die too quickly (hi puffdar \:D/). on the other hand games with close outcome and 2 or 3 overtimes are still fun and intense, imho. so i sometimes get the feeling, it's just unballanced teams, that spoil the fun.

supposedly, off is harder than def, because you spawn so quickly, but i dont know if that is not just the opinion of frustrated deffers ;) also, thats where quad is helpfull. iirc people got bored by the dull quad - attack - defend 90sec rountine, too.

before expecting change in the gametype, maybe well worded argumentation would increase your chance of finding acceptance or at least start a discussion, preferable with moderation, not flamewar like drama. but then, as i said, there aren't much players to discuss with ):

Koochi wrote:
Only advertising, cups and activity on standard gts can make it. A new release can do nothing for it, unfortunatelly :/

yep, you are absolutly rigth. But, ok, I'll try to explain my opinion more correctly:

Time of Quake's romance was passed, time when players remembered console cmds, learning strafe jumps and connecting with overs by irc, forums and etc, it all was gone. Small popularity of classic gts is not only problem of Warsow, but also of cpm and ql.

So wtf people needs now? They need a game that has everything built in one packet: chats, statistics, lessons, tips, automatical preset of suitable settings and so on. Just 'press the button, and omg you are the hero of Warsow'. They need something that can replace the real life, and this new life must be friendly and simple. Developers can change spawn time, rocket damage, armor protection and so one, but this is nothing cause no one care. iCA is a main example.

And I think 0.7's ui, matchmaking and statistics are the big goals in that direction, I mean the increasing of the wsw community.

adem wrote:
CTF? Haha, what? Warsow is more about iCA and BOMB now :D Just wait for 0.7 and everything will be ok,people will start to play classic gts and changes will come by themself!

So wtf people needs now? They need a game that has everything built in one packet: chats, statistics, lessons, tips, automatical preset of suitable settings and so on. Just 'press the button, and omg you are the hero of Warsow'. They need something that can replace the real life, and this new life must be friendly and simple.

yeah, right, thats what this thread is about >_>

Developers can change spawn time, rocket damage, armor protection and so one, but this is nothing cause no one care. iCA is a main example.

what is it an example for?! what is iCA telling you about the settings of nw?

0.7's ui, matchmaking and statistics are the big goals to replace the real life.
this new life must be friendly and simple.

and that's it for today, i'm out
(updated 2011-12-17 14:11:20)

I actually think ctf is just to difficult to the average 12yr warsowkid. Have a look at ica, have a look at bipbeta2. The average instaplayer probably thinks like this: "Why should I bother myself with learning strafe jumping when I just need to instajump in that tube to get like 2k speed?", "Why should I learn how to use weapons correctly if there is another mod with just 1 weapon?"
For the average instaplayer things have to be easy. I really love creating complex gametypes with diffrent abilities, and I really loved playing CTFT, just because it was a lot of fun. Thats way to difficult for the average instaplayer. I don't know why, but this is the only reason I see why things like bipbeta2, ica, and even iagungame are played more frequently than ctf.
On the other hand I feel like these players need a certain feeling of power, killing enemies with just 1 shot, getting like 2000 ups with a tubejump. QuadDamage is a great step into that direction, but still I guess a lot of people think CTF is to difficult.
Unfortunately I don't see a way of fighting that, CTF really has to be like it is.
The fact that you need to pickup weapons might be another reason detaining people from playing ctf. Thats a main difference from bomb. Something like a startweapon beside of gb with just little ammo could be a way of fighting it. But I'm not sure whether it's the right one.

well a bit ot-ish' but still..
it prolly is a bit too difficult for the most ica-kids yes, but i don't really see a problem with that. the gt simply ain't made for 12yo's, and those aren't essential for having a solid ctf-playerbase.
from my pov the real problem is connected with the fact that ctf neither is a pub-gt (for various reasons like the required "division of labour":D without which the match ends up in total chaos)->pubs are always empty. that often leads to the impression that ctf ain't played in wsw and sometimes (more frequent?) to not recognizing that ctf even exists.
over the years i've chated to so many players who were VERY keen to play it, but didn't know where to. imo the main prob is that we fail to make the ctf-lovers actually play it. we all know #pu is where the action happens, but that's still a community-insider thingy. most ppl don't know about it, and i'm not only talking of instagibbers and newbees. take a look at muffy for example - this guy actively played on ca-pubs for several years(!) before finding out such a chanel exists. and without knowing all those cases i could still list up many other "long" term nw-players with a similar "fate":p
can also speak from my own experience - when i first downloaded wsw i kinda wanted to only play ctf, but after several days of seeing absolutely no pub-ativity (and idling on pubs without the result of any1 connecting) i came to the conclusion that the gt wasn't played at all and turned to ictf.
and that's why i always wanted some irc/pickup hint at wsw-installation:X
(updated 2011-12-19 12:38:11)

This will probably OT. Just my 5 cents about CTF in WSW. Might lead to something dunno.

I dont really know what's wrong with WSW CTF, since I love CTF in all FPS games i've played (and i've played ctf since 1997 (qwctf), except WSW. And it seems like the game would be great for CTF, but for some reason it just doesnt seem to work, IMHO.

Maps
But one thing has got to be the maps. I dunno, but they don't really seem to work well. Either there's alot of small tight corridors or there's alot of shit/obstacles (this is usually for trickjumping etc, but do we really need the shit be EVERTWHERE (im talking about you WCTF1). everywhere. The maps exists generally feel abit too small. Which makes cessing really easy. Good/decent players can get from pretty much anywhere on the map within a few seconds (not always a bad thing, but with instant respawn its abit anoying).
Have you ever tried playing on the CPM CTF maps or something?

Powerups
Not too much to say here, but i sometimes think that there's to few powerups in CTF. Since CTF in Quake2 most CTF gametypes has had a diversity of powerups. Like "Haste", "Regeneration" or "Double firing rate". I honestly only really like "Regeneration", but something like this could probably help the gameplay somewhat. As an example, it would make it somewhat more possible to kill an enemy that has Battlesuit. Or if you have a Quad + Regen, you might be able to have even better quad runs, or whatever. And it adds to things you have time and makes teamplay even more important.

Conserning pickuptime etc, i dont really know what to say. For myself i've always enjoyed instant pickuptime more. But with some captime on. 1 second or something. But I actually dont care to much about these parameters. I think it's flawed due to maps and powerups. But that's my view on things, I know most guys dont agree. But honestly WSW CTF as it is today, sucks compared to FPS games CTF.

TL;DR WSWCTF IS BAD, OTHER FPS GAMES CTF IS GOOD
(updated 2011-12-19 15:50:42)

tongue wrote:

Maps
But one thing has got to be the maps. I dunno, but they don't really seem to work well. Either there's alot of small tight corridors or there's alot of shit/obstacles (this is usually for trickjumping etc, but do we really need the shit be EVERTWHERE (im talking about you WCTF1). everywhere. The maps are generally feel abit too small. Which makes cessing really easy. Good/decent players can get from pretty much anywhere on the map within a few seconds (not always a bad thing, but with instant respawn its abit anoying).
Have you ever tried playing on the CPM CTF maps or something?

i think this is a general problem in warsow. Btw, there are different good maps from 0.32/0.4 i played, probably in some ictf matches. They were really good and super fun. Wonder why nobody is playing them. Probably because they forgot their name (exactly as me) :)

cuz they dun fit nw/the actual nw ctf sys (i guess u mean acidwctf2, speedyctf, 13vast and face)

The thing with cpm or any other quake map converted to wsw is that it seems "smaller"(warsow models are bigger) and it causes some annoying stuff like headbashing ceiling, hitting walls etc etc... At least thats the case with maps i've played :P

TBh i like CTF as it is, cause when teams are even there are some great-few overtime's matches, last second caps etc. Problems start after some really shitty games with score 15-0 or simmilar. Ppl start to rage. or say they wont play for a month (shoutout to Puff :D) Thats especially painfull if someone is playng for 1st time and after he got owned 15-0 he wont add anytime soon...

The usual reason I don't !add ctf is I don't want my teammates to be beaten like 15-2 cause of my "skill". :)

Thanks for your contribution! There are many good posts in this thread already :)

I thought I could give my opinion on current CTF maps:

WCTF1

My favourite official CTF map. I love all the movement possibilites in this map. I think this map is pretty well tuned to optimal. Only thing I'd change is that RL spawn; I'd just move it to lower level (but under the RL)

WCTF1 works well on CTF:tactics. Good class lineup might be Runner+Medic+Grunt at offense, or Grunt+Medic on offense and Medic+Engineer+Grunt on defense.

WCTF2

Good CTFtactics map, probably because there's no item pickups in CTFT.
The layout is good, but the items aren't located so well. This map is never played in 4v4 CTF because of its item locations. The map has 2 Battlesuits, 2 RAs, 2 YAs and even a quad.

The most problematic spot is the flag area. It has everything that defender needs in one place: YA, Rocket Launcher and positional advantage to flag. You can just stand there, collect armors and RL's and spam rockets down to the flag. I'd move either the Yellow or the Rocketlauncher away from this spot.

The style of the map and general looks are pretty damn good. But this map has one horrible bug: at r_bloom 1 the map flashes like a strobolight in a disco. This flash can't be turned off by anything else than disabling bloom and tuning down the light settings.

WCTF3

Good CTF map, the third most played map in CTF pickups. Since 0.5 and shorter Battlesuit-spawntime this map revolves around BattleSuit. It's very powerful item in CTF. Even if you have just 100/75 stack you will be able to take 700 damage before you die. That's a freaking big amount of health. With pretty much unexisting selfdamage you can also do a fastcap with rocketjumps. Even if there's 3 defenders at the time when BS carrier arrives they will have a hard time stopping him from making a capture with Battlesuit.

Because of the Battlesuit there's no RA or MH/UH in the map which balances it a bit, but one is still able to get 100/50 - 100/100 stack quite easily because there's 4 green armors and 4 yellow armors.

However, I heard that BattleSuit spawntime will be 180 seconds in 0.7 again, like it was in .4 and before. That is really good and that will make CTF3 a lot better map to play for sure.

Another bit problematic thing is that teleport to middle. That seems to be abused quite a lot in CTF games (yep I'm talking about you l!n :P ) But it's a big and easy-to-use shortcut so it's understandable. I don't know what could fix this, maybe making the tele atleast a little bit harder to enter. Maybe some door with a button next to it to open the door to get to the teleport?

CTF:tactics doesn't work very well on this map. This becomes very easy one to defend when you can place 4 turrets up at the flag area.
(updated 2011-12-30 16:33:49)

tongue wrote:

Have you ever tried playing on the CPM CTF maps or something?

Yes. Have you? Try them and you'll notice that CPM maps start to feel really small in Warsow due to fast movement and easier trickjumps (WJ). For example cpm3a is really horrible map to play in duel. So god damn small.. playing it makes your eyes bleed, your ears locked, your feet paralyze. It's bring infernal pains. I f****ing hate that little piece of **** map in WSW.
If you want CPM maps ported to Warsow CTF, someone needs to make a remake of them. (hopefully with bit bigger scale and some other tunings too)

Powerups
Not too much to say here, but i sometimes think that there's to few powerups in CTF. Since CTF in Quake2 most CTF gametypes has had a diversity of powerups. Like "Haste", "Regeneration" or "Double firing rate". I honestly only really like "Regeneration", but something like this could probably help the gameplay somewhat. As an example, it would make it somewhat more possible to kill an enemy that has Battlesuit. Or if you have a Quad + Regen, you might be able to have even better quad runs, or whatever. And it adds to things you have time and makes teamplay even more important.

Agreed 100%. Warsow needs more powerups. It would bring more fun and more depth to gameplay :)
For example, Some sort of speed powerup could be really great. No selfdamage, stun immunity and bit faster walkspeed for example. (But no extra protection from splash or anything like that.)

I think warsow CTF need two things
Firstly dieing in warsow give you no penalty, you just reapear and take easily a lot of weapon and ammo from the map, ctf should have some 5s respawn time, it will allows you to not be so rushy and don't care about dieing +back should be a good solution, you need to retake some life. No more 100hp rocket rush.

Another thing which can help CTF to be better, is bigger map with many health buble and many item, it will give a good balance with respawn time.

and finally CTF should have some kind of warsowy power up. (ex: smthing which slow down all nearby enemies,...)