Shootmania : Warsow killer ? (plz read : shootmania = next esport big thing ?)

I agree that making map and scripting is totally in the side of modding. Sorry for the reduction. If I dig into this, I shall say that the best effect we have seen on the instrument we provide is the combination of speeds. If you want to test a specific mode, you can use gametype scripting, ok. If you want to make a map, you can use Netradiant, ok. But if you want to test a map type and the maps at the same time, it starts to be a little longer. It is not just because of complexity, but of time to do, and undo. It is also the ability to throw away your maps since you did them quickly. And more importantly, it is the time to share it with more and more people. The success of Youtube is about sharing, not about creating. That's the same with Wikipedia.

Then, you can have bigger phenomenon or more long term niche. As an exemple, we can take Warsow, if you agree with this. And you can also take the history of the RPG track on TrackMania as another exemple.
http://trackmaniarpg.blogspot.fr/2008/07/history-of-rpg-tracks.html

It is a very specific way to play the game, but it gaves a specific taste. And most expert ones, like in arts are often comdemned to smaller audience, which logical since accessibility is more difficult. Picasso FTW.

Ok you say that because wsw doesn't have ingame editor it makes development soo slow that its a big disadvantage??

Look at Source based games, almost the same as wsw and look how much content it has. The speed doesn't matter, the size of community matter. Many just cant stand the cartoonish look others don't like the speed.
(updated 2012-05-21 13:21:57)

Speed for development may be an important factor if casual gamers are your target audience (like Trackmania). But the mapping tools have really never been a problem for quake-based engines.

I think how original developers of the game react to the modding community is way more important factor for games like ours. For example look how hostile stance Quake Wars took at mods - didn't allow them in stats and whatnot - with our next release and global stats, we allow stats and awards coming in from all mods and gametypes. We might even give some special attention for the gametypes that get popular.. :)

Main disadvantage of warsow:
Q(noob): Plox halp I wanna start server
A(Normal user): Ok I will help you. Can you work with cmd and make http server?
Q(noob): wat is cmd???!?!?!?!?!

Mapping:
Q: hai i wanna make maps
A: DL netradinat

100 questions later

Noob: LOl this is too hard for meh
(updated 2012-05-21 13:37:52)

Ultrak1ll wrote:
Main disadvantage of warsow:
Q(noob): Plox halp I wanna start server
A(Normal user): Ok I will help you. Can you work with cmd and make http server?
Q(noob): wat is cmd???!?!?!?!?!

At least War§ow allows you to host your own servers, with no restrictions or limits by our side.

Ultrak1ll wrote:
Mapping:
Q: hai i wanna make maps
A: DL netradinat

At least War§ow allows you to create and deploy custom maps and content with no restrictions or limits (ignoring pure servers here).

Ultrak1ll, there is a ping pong between map making, mode making, players etc. And the faster is the ping pong, the funnier, rich and diverse is the creation in my oppinion. But it is only an oppinion with the argument of quickness that is far from a demonstration. And I think that having example of a great list of map on quake-based engines is also far from a demonstration based on counter example that I can take for answer. And I will probably wait to bring you an exemple that demonstrate the countrary by releasing ShootMania. Until then, I can just try share the feeling I experience since some years in the dev of the game and making maps or modes.

In fact, Crizis, if you think that only having the right quantity and quality of content is the goal, then it looks a little like Todd said on Quake Live: we are enough to make it according to the best creation from the players, if I understood right. But again, I believe that enabling creation to more people is more important than quantity, it is a matter of style and expression. Youtube is not about quantity or quality, it is about having the right video talking about the right thing you want, or just to have fun for one minute by discovering something that you can forget as quickly as you have seen it. We do not make comments like book, we do not talk with friends only based on the concept of quality, we share more lightly and it makes it more fun probably.

And I agree that the link between the studio and the players is one of the most important matter. The key is to support by understanding your game and the gamers. This is why I rarely feel losing my time in the forums. I have read hundreads of thousands of posts, and while I rarely ask advises from players, I try to figure out what is the best long term goal from their expression.

TBH, I don't think modding nor comunity support are key points in here at all. IMO, it's simpler than that. Most players just prefer games with more inmersive ambients/gamemodes (and less face-to-face based) than fast FPS offer.

In the Q3 days there was no other choice than Q3 or UT, so FPS players played deathmatch or nothing. A vast majority of UT and Quake players moved to CS simply because they enjoyed it more (not the experts, ofc, just all the rest of them).

I saw it happening myself in the Q2 server I used to hang out. Players started talking about CS, 2 months later only 1/4 of the population remained playing. The deathmatch scene has been dreaming on their return since then.
(updated 2012-05-21 15:50:27)

indeed jal, but i dont think we are talking about modding and community tools having big impact on the popularity, but rather, how the game will play etc. from what i heard, the developpers are focussing mainly on delivering a platform, and then leaving it more or less up to the community to come up with the favored gameplay and gametypes ( or atleast allowing the community to be creative with gameplay and gametypes; within a reasonable framework ofc).

and with respect to the discussion about quake modding and mapping tools, certainly the quake ones are more powerful, but alot less accessible, it takes a long time to get to the technical level where your creations are credible.

the nadeo route (http://www.shootmania.com/media/images/screenshots/6.jpg) is to make what is a less powerful editor, but much more easy to jump in to and create content. the fact that the visuals are standardized means that maps are more likely to be judged on gameplay than anything else.

i look forward to trying to game out, and i hope the community comes up with some good stuff; i have to be honest, the gameplay vids i saw were underwhelming...

*edit for jals edit; yes i remember quake2 ctf being all the rage in the netcafe near my school, and then CS came out (i think it was beta5- the one with the scoped m4) and the cool kids switched, but this isnt about shootmanias possible popularity, but rather about their unique approach to gameplay and community.
(updated 2012-05-21 15:50:28)

thelawenforcer wrote:
but this isnt about shootmanias possible popularity

Yes it is! Esport goes nowhere without popularity!

well the difference between this sort of map making that shootmania has and q3/warsow/whatever, is that it's shootmania's advatantage.can't really say same for warsow.sure its not really problem in games like warsow etc but no one cant say that warsow one advantage is its maps.Actually these map making tools (if they are close to trackmania in term of quality) is perfect example how to connect with the fans.

TBH, I don't think modding nor comunity support are key points in
here at all. IMO, it's simpler than that. Most players just prefer
games with more inmersive ambients/gamemodes (and less face-to-face
based) than fast FPS offer.

The graphics of Minecraft or LoL did not prevented them to be top played games.

In racing, we had Gran Turismo coming after Wipe Out, but we still have TM as the most played online racing. There is somehow a trend: hardcore > simulation/realism > wide audience.

Today, there are more players attracted by military shooters also because those games have big budget with impressive graphics based on real photos that are powerful for marketing. But if you provide something without it tomorrow, there is only a fraction of the current players that will really bother to leave the real weapon world I think. That's like with Hollywood, there is only some real military movies in the history of blockbuster, and you will find more people interested by Star Wars, Avatar, Starship Troopers, Battle_whatever etc. Halo is an exemple as well.

I think it is more important to be in the 2.0 dimension than the universe. And I think it is the same for you probably. So it is the same for many. Other people are not strange people ^_^

For me the problem with fast fps was always progress curve. Back in the days, as someone mentioned before, there wasnt really alternative to quake/unreal so people played it and got good in it. As time goes it seems like profile of gamer changed a little bit and people dont wanna spend hours of playing just to be competitive in future. I know how long it took me to get decent in warsow and i can say for sure that i would not spend so much time nowadays to practice. I think thats partialy reason of LoL success (other than beeing free to play), cause without a lot of time put in playing you can be decent and competitive player. It might be hard to achieve in arena shooters just because it's nature to be hardcore/top level competitive game. What i think could be a solution is to separate public and competitive game, by creating a lot of fun features for public games and creating mod or whatever for competition. Im aware thats not new idea :) but i think thats the best way of transition from pub player to competitive one. I dont believe that guy who plays the game for 1st time thinks "im gonna be pro player and win cups" rather than just enjoying game and do all sort of crazy stuff. I think ET did this pretty good with ETPro, but game itself has other problems. So ye to wrap this up :P i think any new fast fps has to give new players a hand, and to drag them in with something more than easy map creation/modding tool, first try to make ppl care about your game :)

Sorry for mistakes etc etc :)

Hylis wrote:
The graphics of Minecraft or LoL did not prevented them to be top played games.

I did not mention graphics at all. I mentioned ambient and gameplay. I talked before about Urban Terror. IMO, this game is a good example since it has zero promotion (sometimes I think they hide it on purpose) and bad graphics, and, while on a humble scale, it still shows more player attraction than QL and other similar free deathmatch games. And it's a quite skilled game on high lvl, btw.

Same goes for ET. No good graphics, no big budgets, large skill curve, good player reception. And both of these games are well suited for competitions.

IMO, going with oldschooll deathmatch is just trying to do things the hard way for no reason.

I think the trackmania editing style has actually a lot of potential, but it would be much better used for something in the style of Natural Selection, where the scenery counts on casual playing, than on a supposedly competitive deathmatch game, where pros will want to play forever the maps they've trained and casuals do not really appreciate the difference between one map and the next except because of the aesthetics.
(updated 2012-05-21 19:36:43)

Randzor, that's exactly what a LoL players, Skyart, says in the video from the Gamers Assembly. He says that you come for fun and then want to make competition on it.

We have made ShootMania to have a smaller learning curve, which does not mean a smaller training/skill/tactical curve. Only the time to reach the full info to be at an equal level as others. Like switching often of maps makes you at the same ground while a more reduce number of maps can lead to people wanting to play on always the same to avoid others to know more the new maps then themselves. It is complicated, but that's the difference between many and infinite somehow. You can arrive in the game at any time and know the maps as much as the others.

We will see Jal. You just say that there is no reason, while there are plenty. Less violence, more moves capable than military can do, a better visibility of the action (rockets, lasers etc) a wider audience appeal as referred on the movie side industrie, a wide capacity of modding without changing the univers etc.

You talk about ambiance, eSport and popularity. NeedForSpeed was at WCG and then TrackMania did with these graphics:
http://www.tm-tube.com/video/23865/RIDE+ON%21+by+sprint+%26amp%3B+tRkr

It is only going in the logical way for me.

I did never say anything about graphics...

Big thanks for your feedback, Hylis. Now we only need John Carmack to register in the forum so we can have his input about future of FPS :p (j/k)

Anyway, one says soccer, one says ball game, one says sport, I say game.
Whatever the game, whatever the cause, the size of the community depends on its ability to deal with hardcore and casual tendencies. This is where we could learn a lot from Trackmania.

Overall, esport doesn't mean only competition, exactly like sport isn't only related to competition. And competition isn't only related to business.
Then, compared to classic games and sports, videogame brings a major change. The opportunity of self improvement isn't only about ingame skills or social skills. It's also about hacking, modding, and therefore, getting software, programming skills. I can see noone here who isn't a DIY, a self-made man.

While physical education at school is nowadays obvious, digital education isn't. See my Blue Ocean strategy ?
(updated 2012-05-22 01:26:52)

One thing that annoys me greatly in this discussion is this whole "killer" attitude, some game must kill another game to be good or to succeed. It's right in the damned title, and by the founder!

Yes, it is likely any random commercial game X gets more players tha Warsow. It's kinda obvious. If that's your vision of "killing" a game, fine. But all of the "killer" games above are just completely different games pointed to completely different audiences. Do you think I would drop my fps duels for driving around a track in TrackMania? Not gonna happen. I doubt hardcore TM players will do the vice versa either. Also these commercial games seem to come and go, yet Warsow is standing here, 7 years later.

In e-sports in general other games rarely ever "kill" another either. Sponsors do - players play whatever they do. Like QL was "killed" from IEM simply with money, not because it didn't get viewers or players. LoL simply bought themselves in and offered crapload of money. End result of this in my opinion is general killing of esports itself, as now whole event is just boring point n click rts even with sc2 and lol and nothing else.

If you really wanna compare e-sports to real sports with this "future" of sports whatever thing: Football is obviously much more popular than javelin, high jumping or sprinting. Does this mean these events should die or be killed from olympics?

crizis wrote:
...

Ahah you make my day, Crizis. For sure I share your point. Now I want you to follow same reasoning about different gametypes of Warsow =)))

[off topic] I love such type of discussion where arguments and thoughts are the only weapons. thanks folks for the nice read!

crizis wrote:
One thing that annoys me greatly in this discussion is this whole "killer" attitude, some game must kill another game to be good or to succeed. It's right in the damned title, and by the founder!

Indeed, the title of this topic was stupid, sorry. But at least, it helped to get some attention. And your words remind mine when I asked to replace "kill" by "frag" in Warsow's glossary. "In chess, you don't kill your opponent's piece", remember ? =)
(updated 2012-05-22 09:36:59)