about wctf4

This is not really request or anything but I think ctf certainly could use some love.I think ctf4 suffers from some really serious problems that are more or less quite easy to fix.Like I said its not really request but with this i want to give you something to think about and its partly for teaching .I heard there are better gameplaydesigners/map balancers in devteam already but seeing so much work wasted in such useless tasks such as adding items to bomb maps,I thought it could be good to share some of my tips.

Also if you think ctf kinda sucks, its because this sort of issues that are easy to fix are not fixed.Besides ctf havent got proper map in few years (sorry anthy and dkw) its not hard to guess why the ctf "community" has almost died.

Three main problems that i can think of:
-wierd ammo/gun placement
-boxy design
-quad placement


# wierd ammo placement

I think the ammo/gun placement really makes this map much worse.basicly guns are added to as far away from ammo as possible so often people just use weak ammo.This lead to fact that the map dont take advantage of warsow's ammo system when 9/10 you just use weak ammo.Since its very straightforward map, the ammo placement doesnt make gameplay any skilled.So to fix this i would change placement in a way that its able to pick up strong ammo when just using single route/bit closer.Like strong lg ammo box is almost useless now since the placement is so fucked up that I dont see lot of people having both at the same times, unless you build stack on purpose.however building stack on purpose is kinda wrong since the layout is so simple and ctf generally should be fast gametype imo.

Also I think its fun if you can use powerfull weapons, so forcing attackers use all sorts of wierd weapons like mg,gl,weak lg etc is fundamentally wrong.Generally adding best defensive weapons close to base probably isnt good idea but in this map i would move gl,eb more closer(like where mg or pg is).I think the map is too off heavy so def should have more powerfull weapons anyway.To fix that off could get usefull weapons aswell so I dont see problem in this.I think wctf6 itemplacement is pretty good since it gives player the weapons he needs for certain position.like ra def in hallway has lg+pg+ maybe eb,gl whereas the flagdef often has rl,rg,lg.

#boxy design
I think this is main issue in this map and its layout issue which reflects to gfx aswell.if you spectate and go far away from map, you notice this map is one big rectangle.Often in this sort of maps there are no L shaped hallways which are good for cutting down vis and for separating different areas.In this case it means that you can almost see from one base to other and unless youre big fan of thousands of units eb fights its problematic.Also this is visible in scoring situations where attacking team tends to come in swarms and in a way that they are hard to stop.Also by fixing this, you could get some more variation to routes which I think could benefit the gameplay.Anyway I understand that this is harder to fix but one way would be to rebuilt whole mid area and maybe more bases more away from each other in y dimension.

#quad placement

I think quad in this map is not that powerfull and its in place where its quite easy to steal.ALso if youre able to get quad, youre in position (in lowest level) where its hard to build attacks and thefore I think the powerup is not that powerfull as it should be.

first about stealing quad.ok lets assume you fight about quad and you die.this means you spawn in your base and if youre lucky you spawn in highest spot next to ga and eb+ there it takes about 1-2 seconds to go to eb and vola youre in very close to quad and in position where you can easilly either kill all guys that are close to quad or steal it.So I think quad should be in same spot but higher on some sort pilar or something.if quad would spawn in place where player is hard to stay like on some really small pilar,it would force people to time it better and the risk reward factor would be much higher.Also this would lead to more funnier situations where someone with good quadtiming could do really good and fast runs imo.

I think fixing just 2/3 these would give really big benefits and would also be worth it.Also if you disagree with me or have good ideas, come and give comments.

*weird

It's also the best map for playing bots on. Some maps the bots don't even get the flag.

You forgot to mention one of the biggest problems of wctf4:

The flagroom is way too open and spammable, and there's too many easy and fast routes to it. In wctf4 it's not abnormal at all that once someone gets the enemy flag to his own flag spot, the flagcarrier dies while capturing and the flag gets repicked up atleast 2-3 times before it's captured/recovered.

hello, I already had a talk with moto on irc about it, let me resume what I think :

CTF4 is too little and flag timers make it impossible if you have decent players in the game. moto should cba to change, the map can be fun for "newbs" and ictf.

I play the 3 same maps for 3 years... please just go with new maps :))
(updated 2012-06-13 11:01:32)

Puffdar, I don't think that completely removing flag timers is that good idea, but some compromise might be good, like a very short flag timer (1/1.5s like we always did in ctftest)

Anyway this topic is about wctf4, if you want to discuss CTF in general go to bump the 0.7 CTF thread in Gameplay-forum :)
(updated 2012-06-13 10:19:17)

First of all ctf4 has no depth to it. As moto said it is a box where you can basically shoot rocket from one flagspot to another. Which leads to next problem which is spammable flagspot. You can do eb trick or spam rockets from lg positions which is even more effective. I know some ppl like it but it is really random and chaotic map :) and for me (as off) really boring to play.

is it a surprise that ctf4 is spammy and rushy?

its like moto says a rectangle, the routes from base to base are very open (and more or less straight lines) - there are no real control points into the base (you are very open if you do - at eb for example) and the flag spots are totally open and have long sight angles into them...

this map is beyond fixable - like warsow itself - a tweak here and there will not fix something that is broken to the core.

well yeah probably its not "fixable" but I think it could be alot better if someone just used few(1-4) hours of work in it.

and the boxy design is the reason why flagspot is spamheavy imo.maybe even changing one route, could do big difference.or not.

to make a real difference, you would need to redesign the whole of middle and extend the back of the bases and make a real flag room.

to say that it would require just a few hours isnt realistic imo.