Warsow 0.7 Release Cup 23rd June (with prize money)

Gand wrote:
only strong ammo?

RIP warsow.

I quote huksi from another topic:

Huksi` wrote:
Here's some bad things that happen when there is no weak ammo:

1) Duels become even more hectic as you can get back to control even easier than before, because you dont have to take strong ammo to get powerful weapons
2) This creates lots of randomness like you killing someone who spawns right next to RL and rushes your face with it
3) Nobody will ever go to spots like strong EB in wdm5 anymore, simply because other things are way more important now
4) Warsow becomes more random and unplayable for good players. Remember that Warsow always had a kind of problem with unpredictability of the whole gameplay, many good players seem to think that it should be more controllable.

On the contrary, it hasn't brought hectic or randomness at all. It has made warsow faster and more of a CPM variant.

1) One of the problems in warsow duel with the ammo-system on high skill was that first kill was a HUGE game-decider. Just look at me and kerpal, scores were most of the time around 18-5 and making it impossible to get back control in the game. You almost never had scores for example 12-14.

The one who was in control of armors/hp already had a bigger advantage but he was also able to control the ammo which gave him even more dmg. This is where the fault lies with the ammo system. The one in control does MORE dmg AND has MORE hp/armor. It wasn't balanced. And in my opinion, it only added frustrations.

2) Dont let the enemy rush you with RL when you're low, simple as that :)
3) Lies, I still go for the ammo box of EB because EB-gun only gives 5 slugs.
4) Warsow becomes more obvious and fair about controlling the map/armors, there isnt a reason anymore to waste your time to control ammo slugs to make sure you have the upper hand.

SkulP wrote:
well the thing is the balance between good aim/good map control is broken right now. I bet not even rapha could win a warsow duel against someone with better aim than him at this point.

Not true, kerpal still beats everyone on wdm3,5,6,... There's more to duel then aim only :) Bad positioning and timing gets punished a lot harder now because you're able to hit harder now.

And why wouldn't reload's opinion be important? He played it for countless of hours on high skill and also QL on a high level?

Oh and cba to discuss about TDM or CTF with no more weak ammo, but I do can say: not even 1 person did ever control ammo slugs in TDM... We, l!n, anyway never did in pcw's. TDM = quad = win.

In the end, warsow has become more fun and less frustrationg with no more 2 different type of weapons in 1 gun.
(updated 2012-06-24 15:54:33)

Oh and cba to discuss about TDM or CTF with no more weak ammo, but I do can say: not even 1 person did ever control ammo slugs in TDM... We, l!n, anyway never did in pcw's. TDM = quad = win.

I second that. I've never cared about getting strong ammo in TDM, only if i happen to see one I'll grab it. But its not really needed in TDM, and I've certainly never gone for any strong ammo in CTF except strong LG, since it was the only ammo that actually changed how the weapon behaved.

And I think pretty much ALL of DKWs points are valid and correct.

Having played some duel now with strong ammo only, I have to say I LOVE IT. Feels much better this way.
My only concern: As it is right now there is too much ammo for RL. 20 ammo is way too much.

Maybe ammo could be capped at 10 like it was for weak ammo and the strong ammo gives you a bonus 5. Might work :>

Anyway, Love it!

the lack of importance of the ammo in tdm or ctf is to do with the amount given. 50 lasers isnt very much... nor is 5 rockets. thats counts for duel aswell.
(updated 2012-06-24 20:09:21)

And nobody here agrees that it's way too late to do such a drastic change? Weak and strong ammo system has been in Warsow since always, and it's pretty close to 1.0 now. You should have done it earlier if you wanted to do it.

Stop trying to make Warsow into Quake. It will never be Quake.

tongue wrote:

And I think pretty much ALL of DKWs points are valid and correct.

So what, this is a matter of opinions.

Oh and cba to discuss about TDM or CTF with no more weak ammo, but I do can say: not even 1 person did ever control ammo slugs in TDM... We, l!n, anyway never did in pcw's. TDM = quad = win.

Well I always focused strongly on getting strong ammo, like planned routes according to them. It doesn't need to be timed&controlled because armors and powerups are more important, but it doesn't mean that people still wouldn't have taken them in TDM. And having strong ammo for weapons sure does give you advantage, and it's still part of the mapcontrol in my opinion.

Anyway according to many people this seems something which half of the players like and half of the players dislike.

But that other half who dislikes it; are you really willing to risk it that you will lose them too?

Just try to accept it now. It's too late to do such a change. Warsow has had strong ammo system always, which has been developed for a long time. Remove it now and you remove the core part of Warsow.
(updated 2012-06-25 14:11:35)

So what, this is a matter of opinions.

I tongue, approve this message. :) It's just what I meant. My opinion is the same as DKWs.

thelawenforcer wrote:

in a game where you can move across even the larger maps in under 5 seconds, its important to add items of interest in order to create 'detours'.

Indeed, that was I was trying to say. Warsow's fast movement needs something like this just because you can move so quickly around the maps, and if there is no strong ammo system, the game loses part of its challenge.

whilst i understand the argument about how the popular and more casual gametypes dont feature weak ammo, there is still a place for the ammo system in the more hardcore or legacy gametypes.

This! If you want duel to be strong-ammo only, can't you code it with GT scripts to be so? Like bomb is done. You don't have to ruin all the other gametypes because of the changes in duel :)


edit: Don't forget this also ruins maps. wdm2 and wdm3 are small maps whose strong ammos are very planned. For example, neither of them have a strong RL ammo because it's a small map and would turn into RL fest, which it is now with strong ammo only.

Now you made this into another game now. All maps will be ruined. you need to build all maps again to compensate it. Is that what you really want to do? I thought you were just going to quit.

If you do this, Warsow isn't Warsow anymore. It's some stupid CPMA clone then. If I want to play CPMA, I'll just go and play it.
(updated 2012-06-25 16:11:53)

I'll just go and play it.

sounds fine to me

Huksi` wrote:

If you do this, Warsow isn't Warsow anymore. It's some stupid CPMA clone then. If I want to play CPMA, I'll just go and play it.

Warsow will never be a CPMA clone because it's just too different, also if warsow taken a lot of stuff from it.

In my opinion the real problem has always been the size of maps: removing weak ammo or the projectiles you have wont change anything to the gameplay itself, if you have small box size maps with super fast weapons and movements.
Some people will always play wdm2, wdm5 or wdm6 whining about RL, without asking themselves if the size of maps will encourage the RL abuse and then the gameplay unbalancement.
Playing more on maps like wdm14 or wdm15 makes you understand this concept.

So i guess this weak/strong ammo drama is a bit exagerated. Wsw is still unbalanced and pretty random to me, with or without weak ammo.

Wsw is still unbalanced and pretty random to me, with or without weak ammo.

mod to make it balanced and less random, then see how it goes

most boring cup finals ive seen.Rape

@Huksi:
as said before, wdm2,3,5,6, ...hell any small sized map with this speed will always be more of a RL-fest. Don't blame the game, blame the maps for that :)

I also don't see why they should rebuild maps for some ammo-spots. Example wdm2: Picking up LG gun = 80 ammo, thats nothing, so I still pick up LG ammo every time to get more...

Yes it's quite a sudden (small) game-changer and yes, it needs some adapting for someone who has played years. But this system is still better then the previous for the reasons I already explained above. Warsow duel is supposed to be a competitive game on a high level. If this brings more balancing to the high level and fairness to the damage-ratios of the weapons combined with who's in control etc etc, which it does, then I'm the last person to stop it. The fun factor has increased imo.

thelawenforcer wrote:

in a game where you can move across even the larger maps in under 5 seconds, its important to add items of interest in order to create 'detours'.

These 'detours' are called armors, hp, positioning for fights and weapons, those 4 factors are enough arent they? Duel already needs enough focus on ...everything...


Shorter version:
Making the game easier, more logical and more straightforward, doesn't mean the game is becoming worse. Duel is still hardcore, now positioning for your fights and aim has just gotten slightly more important then before which I'm 100% ok with.

PS: I do agree that some weapons might need some dps-reduction like PG, RL or EB
(updated 2012-06-25 18:58:16)

No but, take wdm2 for example. That map was never supposed to have strong RL or strong EB, but now it has both of them. Wdm3 also has strong RL now.

So now these maps that were planned on the fact that they don't have strong ammo for weapon x will play differently.

Huksi` wrote:
No but, take wdm2 for example. That map was never supposed to have strong RL or strong EB, but now it has both of them. Wdm3 also has strong RL now.

So now these maps that were planned on the fact that they don't have strong ammo for weapon x will play differently.

You do realise the dmg output from weak = 65 and strong = 75 (correct me if I'm wrong). The difference isn't THAT big to make the map played any differently then now. You can go have fun with your RL in dm3, but I'll be having my fun while controlling LG ^^

Btw I dont think its 100% fair to blame maps which were made for version 0.x and since then the game has changed so much that the map itself dont work anymore.

like if you suddenly decided to make player model bigger and someone would blame how the smaller would have suckage movement because player model is too big now for those maps.

THis is exactly that has happened to warsow.gameplay has changed so often that these old maps play very differently now.Its hard to built universally good map imo

so therefore in order to get best out of it some modifications could be done.

None of your points make any sense Huksi. The game changed, and it changed to become a better game. The change has been brought up many times throughout the years. While the weak and strong ammo mechanic was a great and fun thing in Warsow, removing the weak ammo makes the game more balanced, less random, and easier to understand for new players. The change was implemented so late because this is one of the last releases, and the developers though "it's either now or never." The changed wont be reverted, anything you say can't change that.

I know many things in the past have brought up controversy, like stun, movement changes, etc. Well what happened? We got used to them, and we still like the game just as much. So enjoy playing the new version. If you have any real suggestions to improve the new ammo system, I'd love to hear them.
(updated 2012-06-25 23:32:57)

outright removal of the ammo system is not a unilateral change - there are many knockon effects that have to be considered - some of which are obvious, others less so.

so much work has gone into the warsow gameplay over the different versions - tweaking weapons, armor and movement almost endlessly.

no amount of arguing is going to change the devs mind, but im sure that this could have been avoided if the devs had been a bit more transparent about this change - nowhere was it mentioned in blogs (infact, the april fools blog this year was exactly this scenario - just to show how out of the blue it is for most!) - had there been, perhaps this situation would have been avoided and we would have ended up with something different.

pandering to the quake community will likely draw some new players for a short while - but the issues with warsow go deeper than that.

not the thread for this kinda discussion

thats true, but there was no real announcement or at least i didnt see one, nor is there a forum thread about it, either created by devs or players... it was in the cup thread that the ammo discussion started cos of the decision to run it with the mod.