Ammo cut down
quote and reply
Rl should have ~7 rox at least. In a few maps like dm17 and dm12
low ammo count is quite a pita, since their strong ammo is hard to
reach and have a single rl. Being out of it a little more than
before is ok, but on these maps it really shape the game
differently.
I'm fine with other counts, lg count is low but i'm not having trouble with it not being a big lg player.
(updated 2012-07-23 18:53:43)
I'm fine with other counts, lg count is low but i'm not having trouble with it not being a big lg player.
(updated 2012-07-23 18:53:43)
BBQsauce wrote:
Rl should have ~7 rox at least.
But it shouldn't have 10, which it will have since crizis listened to our worshiped hero named GoReY. This really shows how Warsow development is. One good player makes a topic and everything gets changed instantly.
Huksi` wrote:
Rather put back the whole weak and strong ammo-system.
It's getting so tiresome seeing you write this in every single thread, I don't think a single person in the forum has missed what you feel about the removal of weak ammo. And how you say that it will be the death of Warsow. That is simply just your opinion, and we know about it by now, so please spare us these repetitive and negative comments.
Huksi` wrote:
BBQsauce wrote:
Rl should have ~7 rox at least.
But it shouldn't have 10, which it will have since crizis listened to our worshiped hero named GoReY. This really shows how Warsow development is. One good player makes a topic and everything gets changed instantly.
He's not the only one who wants 10 rockets with first RL pickup you know?
WTFProoF wrote:
Huksi` wrote:
BBQsauce wrote:
Rl should have ~7 rox at least.
But it shouldn't have 10, which it will have since crizis listened to our worshiped hero named GoReY. This really shows how Warsow development is. One good player makes a topic and everything gets changed instantly.
He's not the only one who wants 10 rockets with first RL pickup you know?
Even I want that (10 RLs on pickup), and I'm pretty much a RL-hater (or have been at least). The current 5 is just too little.. 10 pickup, max 20 like GL has! ;)
(updated 2012-07-23 22:03:34)
I have played this game for a very long time, I have achieved
certain things that some havent. For example winning cups and being
called by many people "the best player". Back then anyway. However
I personally feel I sit on atleaast a small chunk of experience
when it comes to playing this game. I am not implying nor saying
that I know everything and I will try to write as objective and
neutral as possible.
By playing with only 5 rockets per pickup, exluding rocket ammo packs that some maps doesnt even have. It has always been known to me that you need atleast 5 rockets to enter a fight, given the circumstances that he has some sort of stack. (He = opponent). You will miss rockets. Thats for sure, atleast there is a possibility we all know that this can indeed happen. Now if you only are given 5 ammo per weapon pickup there are some things you are blocked to. For instance spamming an area tactically with rockets, where nades simply cant be substituted inorder to get what you want, lets say initial and/or exit damage from GL to MH on the map known as "WDM2". Because you will need like I said, atleast 4-5rockets to be effective in a rocket vs rocket fight. You cannot sacrifice that ammo. The other thing, enemy ammo picked up will be significantly lower meaning its hard to simply "be good", with ammo. You will constantly be too low on maybe not just RL. But LG aswell. And thus you will never be effective even though you are lets give an example, having full control? You wont.
The official reason to the ammo cut down as I've heard from crizis it was "to add value to ammo boxes". Sure. You definiatly NEED them inorder to be effective at all. But the thing is you NEED all of them almost. I also want to add that you will never run around the map for 15seconds not throwing away a shot here and there, unless you are desperately running, please exclude the obvious scenarios. The ammo boxes does have value, people dont ignore them. Maybe some exceptions like the RL box on wdm5.
I can give other negative examples of these settings but I am not writing a book. It is not balanced at all between players with these settings, play some duels and you will notice, not just concering the rocket launcher.
As of the issue "RL RUSHING", I have never seen anyone seriously rocketlauncher rushing THAT often. If they do, tactical advice, use LG when they come towards you in a full charge. The "PLASMA RUSH" is much more common. And sometimes very random. I dont see anyone bringing that up however. I see it as a tactic instead.
By playing with only 5 rockets per pickup, exluding rocket ammo packs that some maps doesnt even have. It has always been known to me that you need atleast 5 rockets to enter a fight, given the circumstances that he has some sort of stack. (He = opponent). You will miss rockets. Thats for sure, atleast there is a possibility we all know that this can indeed happen. Now if you only are given 5 ammo per weapon pickup there are some things you are blocked to. For instance spamming an area tactically with rockets, where nades simply cant be substituted inorder to get what you want, lets say initial and/or exit damage from GL to MH on the map known as "WDM2". Because you will need like I said, atleast 4-5rockets to be effective in a rocket vs rocket fight. You cannot sacrifice that ammo. The other thing, enemy ammo picked up will be significantly lower meaning its hard to simply "be good", with ammo. You will constantly be too low on maybe not just RL. But LG aswell. And thus you will never be effective even though you are lets give an example, having full control? You wont.
The official reason to the ammo cut down as I've heard from crizis it was "to add value to ammo boxes". Sure. You definiatly NEED them inorder to be effective at all. But the thing is you NEED all of them almost. I also want to add that you will never run around the map for 15seconds not throwing away a shot here and there, unless you are desperately running, please exclude the obvious scenarios. The ammo boxes does have value, people dont ignore them. Maybe some exceptions like the RL box on wdm5.
I can give other negative examples of these settings but I am not writing a book. It is not balanced at all between players with these settings, play some duels and you will notice, not just concering the rocket launcher.
As of the issue "RL RUSHING", I have never seen anyone seriously rocketlauncher rushing THAT often. If they do, tactical advice, use LG when they come towards you in a full charge. The "PLASMA RUSH" is much more common. And sometimes very random. I dont see anyone bringing that up however. I see it as a tactic instead.
tbh, i find it such a shame that after all this time, warsow is
essentially going to copy the cpm ammo system (including copying
their mistakes - they tried 5 rocket ammo once aswell but quickly
made it 10).
thelawenforcer wrote:
tbh, i find it such a shame that after all this time, warsow is essentially going to copy the cpm ammo system (including copying their mistakes - they tried 5 rocket ammo once aswell but quickly made it 10).
Try researching the definition of copy.
thelawenforcer wrote:
tbh, i find it such a shame that after all this time, warsow is essentially going to copy the cpm ammo system (including copying their mistakes - they tried 5 rocket ammo once aswell but quickly made it 10).
Tbh, why try something new and essentially fail with it (like it was with weak/strong ammo), when you can just take something that is allready there and approven by time and just make it better?
http://noobsanonymous.raveet.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tech_Sheet
not all the figures are exactly the same, but most of them look familiar dont they?
it wasnt a criticism tbh, CPM is a very well designed game, i would just have preferred something a bit more original - not to mention that this will probably open the game up to even more 'cpm clone' comparison...
not all the figures are exactly the same, but most of them look familiar dont they?
it wasnt a criticism tbh, CPM is a very well designed game, i would just have preferred something a bit more original - not to mention that this will probably open the game up to even more 'cpm clone' comparison...
i just want to make it clear that im not advocating a return to the
weak/strong system...
I guess by simplifying the game so much, as in the last releases,
you are going to make the game less interesting anyway.
VectorVanDoom wrote:
@koochi: and going to make the itemlayout very unballanced, too
Indeed. This is what the devs don't seem to realize. Every map plays differently now. Before this mappers could carefully consider which strong ammos they would include in the maps and which they would leave out. Well now there's just all of them. wdm3 and 2 are already destroyed, and many maps have strong ammos that were never supposed to be there.
Also I see lots of people underestimating the effect of this change like "it doesn't change anything anyway". Oh believe me, it changes a lot and it affects almost everything about the gameplay.
lol wdm2, who cares about that shit-map anyways. Didn't play wdm3
yet but I can kind of agree with you, that some maps need changes
in their ammo and weapon layout right now to be as good or balanced
as they were.
Yesterday I had to make this experience on wdm12 when playing against farm. There are only three vital and important areas on the map (not hing unusual actually) which are the RA-, the YA- and the MH-areas. Now all those areas can be reached without effort through one way, you can go from MH trough YA to RA without having to move around a lot. I think you can reach RA from MH in less than 7 seconds.
Now since they all lie in one line the best thing to do as the player in controll is to just stay in the YA area, only make a move for the other Items/weapons when they are either spawning (RA+MH) or when the two major items aren't up (for example to get LG or RG). The out of controll player is now forced to rely only on the GAs and ashards and has to make a move for either RA or MH when they spawn, but since the in controll player knows when they spawn he easily can trap the out of controll player at those items. If the out of controll player tries to make a move for the YA insteadhe is basically fucked since it is in such a risky position that the in controll player mostly will easily do 100+ damage before the other guy can escape.
Now you are thinking: "That's all good 'n' stuff but what does that have to do with ammo-system and balance?", well the important part is, that the only Rocket Launcher on wdm12 is locaded dirrectly near the YA in a niche at the staircase. The out of controll player needs the RL in order to make a successful move on one of the main items (unless he has inhuman aim with Plasmagun), but he can't get it because the in controll player is camping at that area and will deal shitloads of damage and maybe even kill him if he makes a move for it, thus throwing him out of the game for at least another cycle of items. But that's not all, even if the player manages to get the rocketlauncher, he only has 5 rockets to his disposal and the only box of ammo on the whole map is located above the RA and is therefore a bit risky to get.
Only thing a out of controll player on that map currently can do is spam the main items with GL when they spawn or try to get EB-hits right after the in controll player leaves one of the areas after picking up the item.
TL;DR: Some maps have a verry bad layout for the new ammosystem. We either need more ammoboxes and at least 2xRL on every map or we need the ammos/RL placed differently.
Yesterday I had to make this experience on wdm12 when playing against farm. There are only three vital and important areas on the map (not hing unusual actually) which are the RA-, the YA- and the MH-areas. Now all those areas can be reached without effort through one way, you can go from MH trough YA to RA without having to move around a lot. I think you can reach RA from MH in less than 7 seconds.
Now since they all lie in one line the best thing to do as the player in controll is to just stay in the YA area, only make a move for the other Items/weapons when they are either spawning (RA+MH) or when the two major items aren't up (for example to get LG or RG). The out of controll player is now forced to rely only on the GAs and ashards and has to make a move for either RA or MH when they spawn, but since the in controll player knows when they spawn he easily can trap the out of controll player at those items. If the out of controll player tries to make a move for the YA insteadhe is basically fucked since it is in such a risky position that the in controll player mostly will easily do 100+ damage before the other guy can escape.
Now you are thinking: "That's all good 'n' stuff but what does that have to do with ammo-system and balance?", well the important part is, that the only Rocket Launcher on wdm12 is locaded dirrectly near the YA in a niche at the staircase. The out of controll player needs the RL in order to make a successful move on one of the main items (unless he has inhuman aim with Plasmagun), but he can't get it because the in controll player is camping at that area and will deal shitloads of damage and maybe even kill him if he makes a move for it, thus throwing him out of the game for at least another cycle of items. But that's not all, even if the player manages to get the rocketlauncher, he only has 5 rockets to his disposal and the only box of ammo on the whole map is located above the RA and is therefore a bit risky to get.
Only thing a out of controll player on that map currently can do is spam the main items with GL when they spawn or try to get EB-hits right after the in controll player leaves one of the areas after picking up the item.
TL;DR: Some maps have a verry bad layout for the new ammosystem. We either need more ammoboxes and at least 2xRL on every map or we need the ammos/RL placed differently.
WTFProoF wrote:
lol wdm2, who cares about that shit-map anyways. Didn't play wdm3 yet but I can kind of agree with you, that some maps need changes in their ammo and weapon layout right now to be as good or balanced as they were.
Yesterday I had to make this experience on wdm12 when playing against farm. There are only three vital and important areas on the map (not hing unusual actually) which are the RA-, the YA- and the MH-areas. Now all those areas can be reached without effort through one way, you can go from MH trough YA to RA without having to move around a lot. I think you can reach RA from MH in less than 7 seconds.
Now since they all lie in one line the best thing to do as the player in controll is to just stay in the YA area, only make a move for the other Items/weapons when they are either spawning (RA+MH) or when the two major items aren't up (for example to get LG or RG). The out of controll player is now forced to rely only on the GAs and ashards and has to make a move for either RA or MH when they spawn, but since the in controll player knows when they spawn he easily can trap the out of controll player at those items. If the out of controll player tries to make a move for the YA insteadhe is basically fucked since it is in such a risky position that the in controll player mostly will easily do 100+ damage before the other guy can escape.
Now you are thinking: "That's all good 'n' stuff but what does that have to do with ammo-system and balance?", well the important part is, that the only Rocket Launcher on wdm12 is locaded dirrectly near the YA in a niche at the staircase. The out of controll player needs the RL in order to make a successful move on one of the main items (unless he has inhuman aim with Plasmagun), but he can't get it because the in controll player is camping at that area and will deal shitloads of damage and maybe even kill him if he makes a move for it, thus throwing him out of the game for at least another cycle of items. But that's not all, even if the player manages to get the rocketlauncher, he only has 5 rockets to his disposal and the only box of ammo on the whole map is located above the RA and is therefore a bit risky to get.
Only thing a out of controll player on that map currently can do is spam the main items with GL when they spawn or try to get EB-hits right after the in controll player leaves one of the areas after picking up the item.
TL;DR: Some maps have a verry bad layout for the new ammosystem. We either need more ammoboxes and at least 2xRL on every map or we need the ammos/RL placed differently.
I like how you typed all that out thinking what you said is reasonable. Every version something has changed, and thus changed the way we played the maps. Rockets have shorter reload? Well people are probably going to start hugging you with rockets on smaller maps. Eb does more damage? Well people might +back more when they aren't in control.
The thing about the ammo system, is that it's hardly different. It's still a good idea to pick up ammo, just like it was before. It's nothing like CPM, where it hardly matters to pickup various ammos. So in essence the only thing that has changed is the stupidity of having two sets of ammo that confuses players, creates randomness, and overall improves finished game, and gameplay.
lol sorry Clownfart, but did you actually read my text or did you
just mistaken it for some whine-post from Huksi`?
I never said that it's not good to pick up ammo, or that the ammosystem itself changed a lot. It's quite the opposite right now because you can't live without ammo in it's current state (and this won't change when the next release comes and we actually get more ammo from pickups).
What I was talking about is that some maps are not suited for the new ammosystem. Especially wdm12 where you are reall fucked if you are out of controll and your opponent has a bit of brain in his head. You won't get any of the significant three items easily because they are all very close to each other (was like this in the old versions too). You'll need a RL with enough ammo to make an attack on one of them and be effective but the only RL on the map is located right inbetween those three items and that's exactly the spot where your in controll opponent will hang around if he is smart. And the only box of ammo is located over the RA in a rather dangerous position. So basically if you get killed and lose controll your are fucked on this map.
What I ask for is not weak/strong ammo or making the ammo even more important. I ask for at least 2 RLs on each map, except if the map is extremely small (but then it's not suited for duel anyway because of the fast movement of Warsow, but thats another toppic) or the only RL is located in a save position where your opponent won't deny it to you every time he can.
If you need an example of what I exactly mean, you can watch one of the IEM matches between cooller and k1llsen on tourney4 where cooller just denies k1llsen the Rail Gun (his favourite weapon) for more than half of the game on a map where railgun is crucial. Now Rocket Launcher is even more important and on wdm12 you can deny it all the time.
Get my point now? Ammo is good as it is but the way it and weapons are distributed right now sometimes makes the game very unfair.
I never said that it's not good to pick up ammo, or that the ammosystem itself changed a lot. It's quite the opposite right now because you can't live without ammo in it's current state (and this won't change when the next release comes and we actually get more ammo from pickups).
What I was talking about is that some maps are not suited for the new ammosystem. Especially wdm12 where you are reall fucked if you are out of controll and your opponent has a bit of brain in his head. You won't get any of the significant three items easily because they are all very close to each other (was like this in the old versions too). You'll need a RL with enough ammo to make an attack on one of them and be effective but the only RL on the map is located right inbetween those three items and that's exactly the spot where your in controll opponent will hang around if he is smart. And the only box of ammo is located over the RA in a rather dangerous position. So basically if you get killed and lose controll your are fucked on this map.
What I ask for is not weak/strong ammo or making the ammo even more important. I ask for at least 2 RLs on each map, except if the map is extremely small (but then it's not suited for duel anyway because of the fast movement of Warsow, but thats another toppic) or the only RL is located in a save position where your opponent won't deny it to you every time he can.
If you need an example of what I exactly mean, you can watch one of the IEM matches between cooller and k1llsen on tourney4 where cooller just denies k1llsen the Rail Gun (his favourite weapon) for more than half of the game on a map where railgun is crucial. Now Rocket Launcher is even more important and on wdm12 you can deny it all the time.
Get my point now? Ammo is good as it is but the way it and weapons are distributed right now sometimes makes the game very unfair.
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